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  1. #11
    Untangler
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    @Mathiau - never asked or expected UT to open up the proprietary add-ons. I'm talking about the core "Lite" system that the community uses. It's GPL'd. The code is legally available to everyone. That's a non-issue.

    Revenue comes from propriety add-ons and support. My experience is that the "hacking" community for personal projects is often the same group of techies influencing IT purchasing decisions at work.

  2. #12
    Untangle Ninja Mathiau's Avatar
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    so since the code is legally available to everyone, UT is free to do with it as they wish to make their product work the best way they can which includes writing over custom files via upgrades.

    i know it is nice to be able to open everything wide up, but in the end , to me, i think it is more headaches than it is worth for the likely very very few people who would actually venture into modding it as you have.
    kv-2 | UT 11.0.1 | Dell R610 Server | Intel Xeon 2.8Ghz Quad Cores | 24Gb DDR3 ECC | 1 Intel QPort NIC | Integrated Broadcom QP | Dell Perc 4i | 6 x 73G 2.5 15k SAS raid 10 | 100mb/100mb | 30mb/30Mb

  3. #13
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    err.. okay. thanks.

  4. #14
    Newbie izrunas's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I like Untangle (despite its idiosyncrasies) and we are using it as the gateway to a rather large (430 node) network for one of our excellent clients, but the prices for the pro modules for Untangle are just too high for the budget I am allotted by my client. I like the interface--but my client doesn't care about how pretty the GUI is nor about how easy or hard it is to configure. Our solution is going to have to migrate to pfSense and we'll use interns from ECPI to program it. I know there's lots of potential nightmares in this scenario, but it is what it is. I really encourage the good folks of Untangle to re-examine their pricing schema. Untangle appeals to open source server environments, not MS Windows environments--so there is no "expectation" to pay high prices like there is in a shop where Microsoft is gouging their budgets already or where it is being compared to other proprietary solutions like Baracuda, Cisco, etc. Just my two cents...

  5. #15
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    I'll give you the pricing needs work, numbers pulled from the Untangle store

    1 Year Premium Bundle

    10 Users: $540 | $54 / User
    50 Users: $1,080 | $21.6 / User
    150 Users: $3,240 | $21.6 / User
    500 Users: $5,400 | $10.8 / User
    1500 Users: $10,800 | $7.2 / User


    So either the 10 user price is way too high, or the 50 user price is way too low.

    Also, I suspect in your case you've simply sold the product wrong. Because the price of Untangle at present values + hardware in every case I've deployed it has been at least half the price of the nearest competing product from Cisco / Baracuda / whatever.

    I'm not ok with the "open source must be cheap" thinking. It's silly. PFSense will never do what Untangle does. It simply wont, if your client is OK with that then go for it. For me, UT's defensive faculties are sufficient enough for me to tell customers you simply won't get viruses anymore. That statement alone is worth the money because it saves every penny UT costs in downtime every year.

    That said I wish they'd straighten up the price line up... it makes my OCD twitch!
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  6. #16
    Newbie izrunas's Avatar
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    Ok, so a quick network scan reveals my client has 445 unique devices on the network, which means that the annual cost for the Premium Package would be $9,612-- so subscribing to Untangle is more expensive than the billable time for my staff to duplicate all the functions of Untangle (yes, I know this is not a perfect 1:1 comparison, but it's close enough) using existing open source tools and software. I'm sorry, but "convenience and ease of use" is just not enough of a draw when the only people who will actually program the unit will be highly qualified systems administrators anyway...

    Let's do the math... $9,612 equals about 565 man-hours per year. I feel pretty certain that they can manage an Untangle replacement in less than three and a half months of working on nothing else...

    Again, not trying to be argumentative... just trying to make a point about why the client to whom I am referring will never subscribe to any of the packages.
    Last edited by izrunas; 01-12-2012 at 12:25 PM.

  7. #17
    Untangle Ninja Mathiau's Avatar
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    ^^^ if they can do that they should release it then the public...

    if they can do it then why hasn't pfsense, or moonwall, or the numerous other open source projects with teams working behind it then?
    kv-2 | UT 11.0.1 | Dell R610 Server | Intel Xeon 2.8Ghz Quad Cores | 24Gb DDR3 ECC | 1 Intel QPort NIC | Integrated Broadcom QP | Dell Perc 4i | 6 x 73G 2.5 15k SAS raid 10 | 100mb/100mb | 30mb/30Mb

  8. #18
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathiau View Post
    ^^^ if they can do that they should release it then the public...

    if they can do it then why hasn't pfsense, or moonwall, or the numerous other open source projects with teams working behind it then?
    Ditto, You cannot do what you're saying.

    Untangle is sitting on YEARS of development time and while it is a collection of open source products, the way it's deployed makes it much more than a sum of the parts. The Web Filter isn't some fly by night thing, that zVelo monster is the best filter on the planet, and Untangle is the CHEAPEST WAY to get access to it. There isn't a community filter on the market that comes close.

    The Virus blocker, either the new Commtouch or Kaspersky version is irrelevant is similarly priced.

    My point is, the Web Filter alone costs what Untangle is asking for the entire premium bundle when purchased anywhere else. There are some exceptions where you can get a Web Sense or similar filter for less month than Untangle wants, but if you start adding in the time savings for the customer it rarely makes any sense to use something else.

    I've run the number too, and I've got the experience to do what you're describing. Heck I used to DO what you're describing. It can't be done, not in a way that is fair to your client.

    I submit that if you are indeed replacing Untangle with several devices manually configured, you weren't using Untangle to start with.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  9. #19
    Newbie izrunas's Avatar
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    There are many projects sitting on top of years of development-- take the Elastix distribution of Asterisk as a prime example. That is not an argument in and of itself.

    You are probably right that Untangle has achieved a specific mix of integration which has been customized to a large degree-- no argument on that part.

    But, ultimately, the issue is that Untangle should charge what the market will bear. And at least my little corner of the market cannot bear to go to one of my larger clients in good conscience and recommend the premium package at its current price, no matter how well it is coded--but I wish the good folks of Untangle all the success they can earn.

  10. #20
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    And why is that? The number doesn't match a preconceived threshold?

    Please don't misunderstand me, I understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to point out is Untangle's real competition is MORE expensive.

    Of course if you can duplicate enough of UT's features with free products, and sell that integration to your customer as labor, then you get to keep a larger percentage of the project as profit. I'm in the same boat with Intouch.

    Heck Untangle is so good at preventing viruses that it actually negatively impacts my bottom line because I do fewer virus removals. That said, I HATE doing that work so watching it go away isn't entirely bad.

    So I guess I want to ask, what products have you researched to come to the conclusion that Untangle is "too expensive"?
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

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