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Thread: SSD vs HDD?

  1. #71
    Untangle Ninja hescominsoon's Avatar
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    yes but ssd's wear out with every write....also the smaller the manufacturing process the less endurance for writes you have. The only way around this is to increase the amount of space used for wear leveling which means you are paying for more flash but getting less. I ahve to agree with the side here that states for UT an ssd just really isn't needed and UT isn't right now a good environment due to lack of TRIM support either(if that's been corrected i'll get corrected..<G>)

  2. #72
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    It's not TRIM, it's the continuous writes required for logging. A 32gb SSD device has ~4TB of writes before it fails, an average 50 user network will consume 4TB of logging with the Lite package installed in 6 months. The same environment will require a 256gb SSD device to survive 2 years!

    SSDs do work, they just require a crazy expensive drive to do it, relative to the rotating storage device. Untangle doesn't realistically benefit from the additional IO, so the media simply becomes a liability.

    And in the interests of completion, most SSDs no longer require TRIM. TRIM is for SSD performance, not longevity, and most SSDs have a TRIM like function built into the drive now.

    Also, Untangle was using 64gb SSD devices, which according to my numbers have a 16TB write limit in most cases, yet they were seeing similar 6 month failures I was. (Hearsay details here, may not be real) Which indicates the "data" I have is still very much not complete.

    It suffices me to say that as one of the more successful resellers of Untangle servers in general, I'm standing behind Untangle's decision to discontinue the use of SSD technology because it's not a good fit for Untangle applications and causes increased risk of failure versus rotational storage for all applications based on Untangle software.

    SSD will work, but you'll likely suffer a premature failure in your application, use it at your own risk. If you remove the reports module, you'll likely be ok. But what good is a UTM without event logs and reports?
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  3. #73
    Untangle Ninja hescominsoon's Avatar
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    it's all how the writing is done..i know of another product that works fine with ssd's...one of the biggest issues is UT NOT having trim..it results in huge amounts of write amplification which kills the drives..either way UT nor the other app truly NEED ssd..

  4. #74
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Well if it's TRIM and TRIM alone, which I doubt, once Squeeze is here, knock yourself out.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  5. #75
    Untangle Ninja hescominsoon's Avatar
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    I never said that it is only trim but it is a big factor...maybe i wasn't totally clear in that regard and for that i apologize...either way i still agree with you UT doesn't need ssd...

  6. #76
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Yeah, but UT personifies tons of small writes, so it doesn't help that the platform itself is pushing straight into the SSDs weaknesses.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  7. #77
    Untangle Ninja YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untangleme View Post

    I have used over 300+ hard drives in my time and had a 50% defective failure rate in servers in there warranty period and the warranty refurbished replacements always fail under raids, I had it with hard drives

    I have no reason what so ever to use a old outdated slower hard drives that fail so much in servers when the SSD are working so well for me

    Unless many teribites are needed and yes I do have a few servers like that


    JUST MY 2 SENSE
    Tell us what you're using for HDDs in the servers...what kinds of servers they are. Because we managed a huge amount of servers....where the HDD count would have a comma in the number. Been doing SMB and servers for like 20 years. When I see "server"...I mean REAL servers...not some home grade cloner server built with motherboard of the month club parts and 3rd party fly by night RAID controllers or onboard Intel fake-RAID and other desktop grade components, and laughable SATA drives which have no business being in servers. Real Tier-1 servers with 5 year enterprise grade SCSI/SAS drives (again..SATA is for the desktop, not servers).

    50% failure rate...what are you walking across a shag carpet barefoot and reaching out and touching the HDDs on the servers to watch a static zap? Or you have some Tesla electricity generating globe in your server cabinet?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    Tell us what you're using for HDDs in the servers...what kinds of servers they are. Because we managed a huge amount of servers....where the HDD count would have a comma in the number. Been doing SMB and servers for like 20 years. When I see "server"...I mean REAL servers...not some home grade cloner server built with motherboard of the month club parts and 3rd party fly by night RAID controllers or onboard Intel fake-RAID and other desktop grade components, and laughable SATA drives which have no business being in servers. Real Tier-1 servers with 5 year enterprise grade SCSI/SAS drives (again..SATA is for the desktop, not servers).

    50% failure rate...what are you walking across a shag carpet barefoot and reaching out and touching the HDDs on the servers to watch a static zap? Or you have some Tesla electricity generating globe in your server cabinet?
    I was thinking of sata because sata is used in a untangle appliance so don't know where you coming from with sas and scsi has nothing to do with untangle even so they do not impress me much and are the weakest link anyway

    Well when I wrote that I was talking about a few servers in the field a few years ago, there broadcast video severs stream 24/7 cant be more specific. My brother does what you do for wall street. I have Now I to been in computer field for over 3 decade and own my company and enjoiner and build hardware. Had to edit the time reference for time is only relevant. I really don't have any issues with hard drives aside from those servers. Yet at that time i started moving over to ssd technology. we ran tests and the sdd was more likely to recover from a virus attac then the magnetic hd and we proved this in the field. no not with consumer ssd. where talking hundreds of thousands of dollors spent on the servers. look I have 5 year old hd at home still kicking in my home server 9 terabytes running from a intel ich9 sata ports thats 5 years 25/7 better luck then most i know.one may have failed I just don't remember, Yet as I see it solid state technology is the future. There workhorses in the industrial market and are jet fighters could not do what they do with out them. As technology moves forward the consumer SSD should improve

    I really over this now don't think it's debatable solid state technology is used in most commercial devises for a reason it's cheep and less moving parts and as any storage device it has a life spand and even your average consumer SSD if you used 24 hours a day 7 days a week on avorage should last ten years

    Every one talking about SSD warring out even under worse case scenario they should out live a hd many times. You really need to know what your talking about read all the fine print not just listen to word of mouth

    Solid state technology has already been provin it just needs to get to the consumer market at a affordable price. The Air Force pays over hundred thousand for a 40 gig SSD that's able to withstand a nuclear blast. So we just need the price to come down on that then you have a good SSD lol.

    I way off topic . Look I use SSD in untangle and there working for me. No failures yet. Now I now some having problems and there SSD are failing. don't be so cheep! You buy anything cheep you going to have a issue then you blame the hardware. I blame the builder for not having foresight

    That's the funniest thing I heard in a long time. Lol
    "50% failure rate...what are you walking across a shag carpet barefoot and reaching out and touching the HDDs on the servers to watch a static zap? Or you have some Tesla electricity generating globe in your server cabinet?"
    Last edited by untangleme; 01-18-2013 at 01:58 AM.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by hescominsoon View Post
    yes but ssd's wear out with every write....also the smaller the manufacturing process the less endurance for writes you have. The only way around this is to increase the amount of space used for wear leveling which means you are paying for more flash but getting less. I ahve to agree with the side here that states for UT an ssd just really isn't needed and UT isn't right now a good environment due to lack of TRIM support either(if that's been corrected i'll get corrected..<G>)
    All storage wears out over time with every write. Hard drives are worse. If you really know anything about solid state technology you would know it should outlast any hard drive by at least ten times . All hard drives slow down over time too and are more likely to fail its the same technology as a caset tapes, it's magnetic. Aren't we over this yet move on people get with the times or you get left behind.
    Trim is just capable of keeping the SSD in like new condition as close as possible same speed as new. Don't get technical on me thats the end result. Either way The solid state memory has a lifespan on av of ten years 24/7 or more , now in a home computer thats on just a few hours a day it should out live the computer.

    Come on I see people buying i7 CPUs with a z77 chipset that are not fully compatible with this version of Linux Then wonder why there having issues. Come on .if you want that much power You need a older version of the i7 like the 1366 socket CPU with a ich10 or lower and if you want to spend more money to speed up the reports use the money for a good add SSD not one on sale for $99 and use a xeon processor with ECC memory. I have a supermicro with those specs. Can't tell you how fast it runs untangle and more so flawless Operation.
    Last edited by untangleme; 01-18-2013 at 02:00 AM.

  10. #80
    Untangle Ninja mrunkel's Avatar
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    This thread has gone way beyond any usefulness.

    I'm locking it.
    m.


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