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  1. #11
    Untangle Ninja mrunkel's Avatar
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    I question the logic of having guaranteed downtime (for cloning the disks) to avoid a tiny chance of unplanned downtime (due to an upgrade issue).

    If you are concerned, a better approach would be to 1.) Turn off automatic upgrades 2.) have an ISO ready for the current version 3.) have a backup file of the current settings available.

    Then you can perform the upgrade at your leisure and re-install if necessary.

    They way I figure it, even if every 10th upgrade failed, you would still have 60 (to reinstall from scratch) minutes of downtime with this method, instead of the 200 (9 x 20 min to make clone + 20 min to restore clone) with yours.
    m.


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    While I'm pretty sure, I can't guarantee that I know what I'm doing. There might be a better way to do this, and this way might actually suck. Make sure you understand the implications of what you're doing before trying to follow these directions.

    It often helps troubleshooting if you have a good network map. Look here if you want my advice on how to draw one.
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  2. #12
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    9 * 20 minutes? Where is that coming from? The disk in this system is 80GB of which only 2.5GB is in use by Untangle. A clone of this at a typical 25MB/sec to an external USB connected disk will take about 3 or so minutes. It will take me longer to wade through Clonzilla's menus than it will take to make the clone. If this system is down more than 10 minutes I should just retire to an old folks home in Florida.

    Maybe you view my conservatism excessive, but I can't tell you how many times major version upgrades of this or that have not gone as advertised in my experience. Typical vendor response: "Oh yeah, we heard about that and we'll have a patch up next week." or something similar. So if I have an image in hand that I can restore in 10 minutes to get back up and running if things go south, it's a good deal IMO.

  3. #13
    Untangle Ninja mrunkel's Avatar
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    So, even if I agree that it takes 10 minutes (and *nothing* takes 10 minutes) 9 * 10 minutes is 90 vs 60. But let's use more realistic numbers for upgrade failures. I think we're around 1 in 1,000 upgrades has an issue. So... That makes your number much much smaller.

    My point still stands.

    Hey, you do stuff the way you want to, I was just pointing out that the math doesn't work in your favor.
    m.


    Big Frickin Disclaimer:
    While I'm pretty sure, I can't guarantee that I know what I'm doing. There might be a better way to do this, and this way might actually suck. Make sure you understand the implications of what you're doing before trying to follow these directions.

    It often helps troubleshooting if you have a good network map. Look here if you want my advice on how to draw one.
    Attention: Support and help on the Untangle Forums is provided by volunteers and community members like yourself.
    If you need Untangle support please call or email support@untangle.com

  4. #14
    Untangle Ninja dwasserman's Avatar
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    MRunkel:

    Your argument ignores the mandatory update from version 7.x to 8.0 in a new install from today.
    This is broadband speed dependent
    The world is divided into 10 kinds of people, who know binary and those not

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrunkel View Post
    So, even if I agree that it takes 10 minutes (and *nothing* takes 10 minutes) 9 * 10 minutes is 90 vs 60.
    WHERE are you getting "9"? It's one thing to disagree (I can clone a nearly empty disk in 10 minutes, I do it all the time) but when you're making up strawman numbers to disagree with, it kinda stops making sense.

  6. #16
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Tiny chance? TINY CHANCE?!?

    One of your resellers is standing here rather forcefully pointing out that your Tiny chance resulted in a massive VPN outage on the last MINOR upgrade, much less a major one.

    And that was just the most recent upgrade. No thanks, my customers don't need to be victims of your broken beta process. I'll let others take the hit, I'll continue to use myself has a test environment, upgrading my network first. Running my own integrity checks against all major features, then and only then, will I push the update to my customers.

    Now, I have to follow this up with another fact. I will have been here for three years in April. In that time I've watched Untangle grow from 5.1 to 8.0. I've seen the feature set double, the capacities evolve well beyond expectations, and magic delivered. In all that time, there really is very little issue moving from version to version. Especially when you consider what was changing under the hood with both Untangle itself, and the technology in question.

    I recommend manual upgrade mainly because configurations need updated from time to time, and the manual process allows me to backup Untangle, have an older version installation disk handy just in case, and I push the button. If something goes wrong, I can go back. It is rare that something really does go wrong, and when it does, it's always fixable. I just don't have the time to mess with it outside of a schedule.

    It is my personal opinion that imaging Untangle is overkill, the backup of the software is more than adequate. If you need the logging detail that badly... Untangle isn't currently the product for you. You need something much larger, with a real archive.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  7. #17
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwasserman View Post
    MRunkel:

    Your argument ignores the mandatory update from version 7.x to 8.0 in a new install from today.
    This is broadband speed dependent
    This is a straw man, I've created a how to that still works that shows how to install an older version.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  8. #18
    Untangle Ninja dwasserman's Avatar
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    I know that , and use, but not all know and edit apt get blah.
    The world is divided into 10 kinds of people, who know binary and those not

  9. #19
    Untangle Junkie dmorris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    Tiny chance? TINY CHANCE?!?

    One of your resellers is standing here rather forcefully pointing out that your Tiny chance resulted in a massive VPN outage on the last MINOR upgrade, much less a major one.

    And that was just the most recent upgrade. No thanks, my customers don't need to be victims of your broken beta process. I'll let others take the hit, I'll continue to use myself has a test environment, upgrading my network first. Running my own integrity checks against all major features, then and only then, will I push the update to my customers.
    You keep bringing this up. The problem was with my patch not the update. I apologized. If you can't get over this incident at this point its probably just better for you to turn upgrades off and leave them that way forever. Then you'll never have to deal with any unexpected changes except for any signature issues.
    Attention: Support and help on the Untangle Forums is provided by volunteers and community members like yourself.
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  10. #20
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Dirk I'm not vilifying you, I'm just pointing out that you make mistakes. We all do!

    I don't like the beta process, 7 days to tick up a number isn't a process... it's a waiting game. How many recent releases have required a panic mode .1 release within a week?

    We're supposed to be on a 6 month release cycle, you're pushing quarterly. It's too fast, too reckless, and you know it.

    Keep this up, and the product we know and love will die because you pushed it off a cliff.

    I will defend you with my dying breath when you deserve it, I will also turn on you quickly when you screw something up. I expect the same in return, it's the only way we can ensure that Untangle as a product improves and becomes what we both know it can be.

    Finally, I also wish I had the resources to really test this software during the beta cycle. I'm lucky to get the chance to even install it before you call it release. All I know is that I'm grateful my clients are all manual, because I don't want to deal with upgrade shenanigans with Thanksgiving next week. I have too much else on my plate.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

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