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  1. #21
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Tesla is doing well, but yet it's still Apple... which is to say a vertical monopoly and the only reason the market is healthy is because of other options being available. IE, all the other vehicular brands.

    It's funny you bring them up, due to their assault on right to repair every chance they can get. They claim open source on some things, while fighting to the death on others. Elon Musk is not Tony Stark, and his force on the market isn't altruistic, nor is it wholly good.

    I suppose you don't use a neighborhood mechanic to fix your car either? Or turn the wrench yourself? If you did, you'd understand just how off target that analog is. A market full of vertical monopolies isn't a healthy one for the consumer.

    It seems to me that I'm arguing in the face of ignorance so profound that I cannot cure it via a forum thread. Not that it'll stop be from trying..

    I will further point out that the people that use this forum or others like it are the extreme minority. I cannot answer for Untangle, but I can say that I do not want residential clients on my service or product. Why? Because they're endlessly needy, whiny, and quick to run off to Yelp / Google with a bad review even when I've done nothing wrong. My fault? I didn't respond to an email in 10 seconds on a Sunday / Holiday evening. THAT is the normal residential customer. Anyone on these forums is an order of magnitude different, and is no longer a consumer but instead a prosumer at least. I'll support prosumers all day long, consumers? No... forget it. Too much time, too little benefit.

    As for how much a consumer is willing to spend on any security at all what so ever? That'd be $0. Were that not true, Android and iOS would be VERY different platforms. There is a market for content control though... but not "security". Ok... there is but it's tiny. And yes if you want a real product, with commercial flexibility you can pay commercial rates. This is ludicrous, you get what you pay for.

    But yeah, Untangle puts their amazing product on the shelf for pennies so people can afford to snag it for home use and what do they get? Chastised for actually charging something for it... What are they supposed to do? Take fiscal losses with every endpoint sold?

    What if I'm wrong and there is a real market and thousands of subscriptions sold and the model wasn't sustainable? Then what? Do they go out of business playing Santa? What if it was a price increase or no home sub at all? Untangle has given me zero evidence they're gouging anywhere else. So why just here? Sensei has the exact same price at $1 / device / month when compared to HPP. And that product has objectively LESS going for it because they do everything in house, Untangle actually licenses stuff from 3rd parties.
    Last edited by sky-knight; 11-29-2020 at 12:14 PM.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  2. #22
    Untanglit
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    Its interesting and maybe amusing that people who want something for nothing are the ones complaining. You don't here anything but great reviews from real customers and people that have a clue and need security and the protections that Untangle provides.

    If you don't like Untangle (or any other product) go get something else, but don't waist your opinion on a large majority that frankly doesn't care to listen to your BS.

  3. #23
    Untangle Ninja
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryOH View Post
    Its interesting and maybe amusing that people who want something for nothing are the ones complaining.
    That’s not entirely false, but that not entirely true, either. It’s no where near that simple in every case.

  4. #24
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    No it isn't, and anyone on the old Home subscription hasn't been handled with the best care... but given the margins involved perhaps the only option?

    Without Untangle's internal financials it's impossible for us to know, but from my perspective as a reseller involved in this industry, and as an MSP owner / operator that uses Untangle as well as competing products to protect my customers... The current HPP offer is not only generous, but competitive against several other offerings.

    Were Home and HomePro TOO competitive? I think they were, and that's why they're gone, they were unsustainably cheap. The rest of this nightmare boils down to the tyranny of the subscription, which given the nature of the platform I don't see solving that anytime soon either.

    Most of the pain I see in these circumstances are the same pains associated with democracy, and capitalism. In that they both generally suck, except everything else we've tried.

    And Untangle announcing a sunset date on two specific subs without details is... painful to say the least. Due to the above we need clear expectations on these things, and we simply do not have them. So no the situation isn't ideal, but might just be the best possible given the balance of all interests involved. I certainly do not expect a better deal to come from a larger corporate entity. All of this reeks of typical SMB issues.
    Last edited by sky-knight; 11-29-2020 at 12:41 PM.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
    Email: support@nexgenappliances.com

  5. #25
    Untanglit
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    For what it's worth, Home Pro users paying $50 for Untangle NGFW is a bargain; Home Protect Plus users paying $150 is a steal! The Threat Prevention and WireGuard apps alone cost $600.00.

  6. #26
    Untangle Ninja
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    …but might just be the best possible given the balance of all interests involved.
    Perhaps. It’s not just what was done (my chief beef here is with HPB and the thin rationale behind it), but also how it was done. If both the what and the how are merely temporal collateral damage, it just might.

    This discussion has wandered all the way from Tesla to complainers. So it’s no surprise that it gravitates toward speculation and away from facts. I’ve had my say. If someone wants to have a civil, non-public, and productive conversation about facts, I’ll consider it. But I have no confidence in the speculation and as collateral damage, I have no interest in the Untangle home offerings. I won’t be Untangle collateral damage again. That’s not sour grapes, that’s the facts.

  7. #27
    Untangler
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    Quote Originally Posted by rauder View Post
    For what it's worth, Home Pro users paying $50 for Untangle NGFW is a bargain; Home Protect Plus users paying $150 is a steal! The Threat Prevention and WireGuard apps alone cost $600.00.
    Wire guard is "FOSS" (free open source software)! A semi working, defeatured web ui is all they can charge for. How much is that worth?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    Tesla is doing well, but yet it's still Apple... which is to say a vertical monopoly and the only reason the market is healthy is because of other options being available. IE, all the other vehicular brands.

    It's funny you bring them up, due to their assault on right to repair every chance they can get. They claim open source on some things, while fighting to the death on others. Elon Musk is not Tony Stark, and his force on the market isn't altruistic, nor is it wholly good.
    Completely irrelevant to my point that dealers a.k.a. middle-men are not always a necessary go between for factories & consumers. In fact, your comparison highlights another way in which dealers screw over consumers to protect their own profits, as along with car manufacturers, NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association) strongly opposes 'right to repair' laws. Old interview, but salient: https://www.digitaldealer.com/latest...ck-gmc-suzuki/

    Thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    I suppose you don't use a neighborhood mechanic to fix your car either? Or turn the wrench yourself? If you did, you'd understand just how off target that analog is.
    1.jpg

    Here's a picture of the back of my currently disorganized garage. Complete with engine lift, shop sized air compressor, maybe about $20k worth of hand & air tools, a snow blower engine on my bench waiting for a new cam I just bought off ebay, a new CV axle & hub waiting to be installed, drill press, etc. Not pictured is my project car, the other bay of my garage, the shed with a woodworking shop, my welding station, my electronic rework bench, etc.

    Now you do yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    It seems to me that I'm arguing in the face of ignorance so profound that I cannot cure it via a forum thread. Not that it'll stop be from trying..
    I know you think you are always the smartest person in the thread, particularly with the way your comments drip with snark and arrogance, but truthfully, your just another scared middle-man with the most to lose if customers go elsewhere or buy their own products.

    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    I will further point out that the people that use this forum or others like it are the extreme minority. I cannot answer for Untangle, but I can say that I do not want residential clients on my service or product. Why? Because they're endlessly needy, whiny, and quick to run off to Yelp / Google with a bad review even when I've done nothing wrong. My fault? I didn't respond to an email in 10 seconds on a Sunday / Holiday evening. THAT is the normal residential customer. Anyone on these forums is an order of magnitude different, and is no longer a consumer but instead a prosumer at least. I'll support prosumers all day long, consumers? No... forget it. Too much time, too little benefit.
    Ok, Untangle, there you have it. Your unofficial brand ambassador calling your customers 'needy, whiny, and quick to judge'. @tcurtis, is this reflective of your view as a company as well?

    Sky-knight, if your customers are leaving you bad reviews, maybe it's because of your terrible customer service? Personally, I have all 5 stars/positive reviews on yelp/google/facebook, any place you can find me. Then again, I see anyone with money to spend as customer worth my time rather than a waste of my time like you, and maybe that's just the real irreconcilable difference between us.


    Lastly, I never asked for the product to be cheaper or free. I was responding to the unearned criticisms ITT of people just asking a question -- how dare they?

    So done with this bullshit. Thanks for giving me the push I needed to go find a different product.
    drmilo, mikeyscott and Farfalha like this.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnyte View Post
    Completely irrelevant to my point that dealers a.k.a. middle-men are not always a necessary go between for factories & consumers. In fact, your comparison highlights another way in which dealers screw over consumers to protect their own profits, as along with car manufacturers, NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association) strongly opposes 'right to repair' laws. Old interview, but salient: https://www.digitaldealer.com/latest...ck-gmc-suzuki/

    Thanks for that.


    1.jpg

    Here's a picture of the back of my currently disorganized garage. Complete with engine lift, shop sized air compressor, maybe about $20k worth of hand & air tools, a snow blower engine on my bench waiting for a new cam I just bought off ebay, a new CV axle & hub waiting to be installed, drill press, etc. Not pictured is my project car, the other bay of my garage, the shed with a woodworking shop, my welding station, my electronic rework bench, etc.

    Now you do yours.



    I know you think you are always the smartest person in the thread, particularly with the way your comments drip with snark and arrogance, but truthfully, your just another scared middle-man with the most to lose if customers go elsewhere or buy their own products.



    Ok, Untangle, there you have it. Your unofficial brand ambassador calling your customers 'needy, whiny, and quick to judge'. @tcurtis, is this reflective of your view as a company as well?

    Sky-knight, if your customers are leaving you bad reviews, maybe it's because of your terrible customer service? Personally, I have all 5 stars/positive reviews on yelp/google/facebook, any place you can find me. Then again, I see anyone with money to spend as customer worth my time rather than a waste of my time like you, and maybe that's just the real irreconcilable difference between us.


    Lastly, I never asked for the product to be cheaper or free. I was responding to the unearned criticisms ITT of people just asking a question -- how dare they?

    So done with this bullshit. Thanks for giving me the push I needed to go find a different product.
    Tell me where you are going, I'll go with you.
    drmilo likes this.

  10. #30
    NuX
    NuX is offline
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    @DarkKnyte - Very well put. "Ok, Untangle, there you have it. Your unofficial brand ambassador calling your customers 'needy, whiny, and quick to judge'. @tcurtis, is this reflective of your view as a company as well?"

    Through the transitive property my assumption would be yes. Unless other wise proven wrong.

    As a needy, whiny and quick to judge customer. Here's my $.02 cents. @sky-knight and @tcurtis you are both an ambassador of Untangle's brand name and or reseller thereof.

    An unknown such as myself will read this and make decisions not only for home use or friends and family' but for large corporations as well.
    in my humblest opinion, I would keep that in mind.

    because after reading this thread, it became apparent to me Untangle representatives views of their customers. Albeit a small sampling of data, but again I'm just a needy, whiny and quick to judge customer.

    @sky-knight. before making a larger order for a corporation, which I did see NexGen as a reseller, I thought long and hard on your site. I decided to kick the tires on the Home version and z4 appliance. in which I purchased directly through Untangle. Now, I am contemplating on continuing my business with Untangled. But I do know, I won't be doing business with your company.

    Back to the original question at hand. which was very valid. -- I take it there isn't going to be any black Friday discounts?
    drmilo likes this.

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