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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    So what is the drag to stay on 7?
    In no particular order:
    • We are already talked about this. I'm not a douche. While I grant countless people do it successfully, according to Microsoft, I may install Windows 10 not for free, but for $139. There is no way I know of to go directly from "After 10 years..." to a free installation of Windows 10.
    • I have no interest in Windows at all, so why upgrade?
    • I paid my post Windows 7 dues working with Windows 8, 8.1, and 10. The result? See the previous point.

  2. #12
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    That seems a bit strange to me... it's software, software must be currently supported or it's potentially dangerous. Now, individual applications can be out of date, and the risks mitigated but an out of date operating system is a huge problem. Running Windows 7 for any reason right now is like trying to get Untangle 12 working... we're on 14 for a reason. You claim you have no interest, but you obviously do because you have a specific use case.

    Now, I perfectly understand the lack of desire to BUY a new OS. Such an investment is bonkers for what you're describing. But now that you know you can upgrade for free the game changes a bit. I'll also do you one more... if you buy a Western Digital Blue SSD, you can use a WD licensed version of Acronis from WDC.com to do the cloning. It makes the above process very clean, quick, and about as painless as ever. If Microsoft's Windows 10 installer stops accepting Windows 7 keys, then I'll stop using them I guess? But it still very much does.

    If and only if the platform is at least a first gen iSeries. If it's older than that, you might need a graphics card because the onboard graphics won't work anymore. This is thanks to Intel never making drivers for those older platforms. But, as I also indicated in many cases it still works somehow. I've got a TON of really old rigs in service, and they're all quite happy on Win10. But, you must do the SSD thing, Windows 10 on a platter is just terrible. Of course, anything on a platter is just terrible anymore...
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    That seems a bit strange to me... it's software, software must be currently supported or it's potentially dangerous.
    Obviously. Of course, as we all know, just because software is supported doesn't mean it's not dangerous.

    The argument or implication that Windows 7 will be vulnerable on the 15th of any month in the first quarter seems a bit strange to me. If loss of support means immediate risk in Windows 7, then the support wasn't all that to begin with. And remember, running parallel to this is the fact that my use case may self destruct with pending changes to FAA policy.

    I know that I can upgrade for free. I've known that for a long time. But to the very explicit and unambiguous question, "Can I upgrade Windows 7 to Windows 10 for free?" Microsoft says, explicitly and unambiguously, "There was a promotional free upgrade offer when Windows 10 first release, but that offer expired July 29, 2016." So? "You can purchase and download Windows 10 on your device today." All along Microsoft makes their actual preference clear: Buy a new device, not a Windows license. And by the way, we sell new devices...

    The point is, of course, that nowhere does Microsoft authorize me to use the expired offer. If you can find that authorization, this conversation might indeed change. Until then, software pirates can burn?

  4. #14
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    Support for Win7 has been waning for some time, it's a vastly more risky platform to use than Windows 10 is right now, even fully patched. But it's not any less secure on the 16th than it is today, unless there's a huge zero day we don't know about.

    As for the authorization you seek, the courts and I view it as a matter of enforcement. Microsoft's authentication systems still allow that process to work. And given the nature of the way that free offer was extended, I don't see how they can stop it. Of course the really logical mind is left wondering why Microsoft is charging for the OS at all at this point. It's not the product that sells, it's a platform that gives them products to sell. So I'm left wondering when they're going to just give the thing away at least for home users. But, I digress.

    As for the ethics, if Microsoft doesn't want people doing this their legal team is doing a TERRIBLE job getting the word out. https://www.cnet.com/how-to/upgrade-...ree-heres-how/ That's a HUGE news site, and this was published on the 2nd. I do know from industry insider news that the only reason Microsoft ended the free upgrade promotion was Dell and HP whining about it. Microsoft has no problems getting a rather emphatic response out when it wants to. And yet in this case it's being strangely... lethargic? They've only put it in their own sales materials and just sort of sat back and let the media run away with an alternate message.

    But, no you won't find any official announcement this process works and is legal. But as an MSP owner operator that's done this countless times over the last few years, has purchased hundreds of refurbished machines from a licensed refurbisher, and navigated multiple audits wherein I've had to communicate directly with Microsoft's legal department... they'd rather you be on 10 than 7. The last licensing person I spoke with when I confronted him directly on this specific issue said and I quote "Well, who's to say you didn't upgrade during the official period?"

    The inconsistency and apathy Microsoft has handled all this with at times has been rather surprising. So, go forth and do what you wish. Just know there's nothing stopping you from upgrading that machine today. And no one in Microsoft's licensing department I've worked with views these out of band upgrades as piracy. Because again, I asked them... directly... Every single time I had the opportunity.

    But, also as an MSP owner, because refurbs are so plentiful and inexpensive, I don't upgrade business platforms anymore. I simply replace them with a licensed platform. Same money, less headache, clearer licensing.
    Last edited by sky-knight; 01-04-2020 at 04:25 PM.
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    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    Of course the really logical mind is left wondering why Microsoft is charging for the OS at all at this point. It's not the product that sells, it's a platform that gives them products to sell. So I'm left wondering when they're going to just give the thing away at least for home users.
    We agree on this. I seriously thought Microsoft was taking a cue from Apple and would formally give away Windows, at least to Home users. I was surprised when that didn't happen.

    I had to smile at this in the article:
    A free upgrade offer from Microsoft that technically ended in 2016 still works.
    The upgrade still works tech-nically. The offer does not.

    It's none of my business what other people do, including Microsoft. Why they choose to wink at this whole thing isn't my concern. All I want to do is buy a little time until I see how the FAA request for comment plays out, which is over 60 days. Then I'm in a better position to make decisions. In the meantime, at the moment I like the idea of segregating the Windows 7 laptop to its own NIC, just in case.

  6. #16
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    That's perfectly reasonable as well, given everything in play. I wouldn't even muck about with the upgrade myself if I only had one machine to upgrade, and I wasn't sure it was going to have value in two months. But if you did a fully isolated setup, used Firefox (because of its separate SSL engine), it'd probably be plenty safe enough, even in a business environment.

    As for the lack of change in the product sales tactics... honestly I think it's Dell/HP. They were the ones threatening legal action over the free upgrade to begin with. And I think someone at Microsoft might be worried about market disruption at a time when PC sales are essentially flat. All the growth is in mobile platforms where Microsoft just doesn't control the OS. They do have O365 though, which is bloody amazing.

    So we'll see what 2020 brings, the lack of clarity on this specific topic is very strange behavior on Microsoft's part. They've never been quiet about licensing issues in any other circumstance. They're very loud, and very aggressive defenders of their IP. So their soft hand on this particular topic over the last few years is rather... odd to say the least.

    The FAA situation is also fascinating to watch unfold, even if it doesn't change my reality much. I already can't fly drones even in my own back yard. I'm too close to an airport. That doesn't stop my neighbors of course... The situation has fascinating if disturbing parallels to the Windows upgrade issue.
    Last edited by sky-knight; 01-04-2020 at 04:49 PM.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    But if you did a fully isolated setup, used Firefox (because of its separate SSL engine), it'd probably be plenty safe enough, even in a business environment.
    Yeah, the transition to Firefox as the default browser happened some time ago, when I ran into Windows 7's IE becoming an unsupported browser. Always something.

    Interestingly, when the last round of new FAA policies hit it was much easier for me to fly in the 5 miles surrounding our small regional airport. I felt like the FAA was doing a good job taking care of hobbyists.

    This latest batch of suggested policy changes seems to reverse that trend, but I think the FAA is in some ways between a rock and a hard spot. On one hand, you have congressional fuss over people who fly their drones with no regard to policy and proudly boast of their exploits on YouTube. On another hand, you have the job of managing the finite national airspace as companies like Amazon and UPS work for aerial delivery capability. And finally, you have the flying camera and FPV hobbyists who can't realistically do their thing in AMA fields. What to do? I think the drone hobbyists are going to have to take the bullet. And flyers like me who hang on to their drones are going to be among the first to die. I could be wrong, but that's how it reads to me at the moment.

  8. #18
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    From a regulatory sense, that's probably true. But I don't think you're in for any sort of enforcement unless there's a problem. The law will likely end up like the traffic code, where you're basically at the mercy of the officer writing the paperwork. That's just the way such systems seem to wind up. I can't see the FAA expending the resources to go after hobbyists, it's not good PR, and it's not really solving a problem. That is, unless it IS solving a problem. Peeping toms, etc...

    As for the aerial delivery stuff... I don't think that's happening anytime soon. If you think the porch pirates are bad now, just wait until they can snag junk out of the air literally anywhere. Dominoes wanted to use little self driving ATVs to deliver pizzas... those I see far less issues with.

    Heck the liability alone... I know my roof can't handle an impact of a 5lb object that fell from 100ft. Bird strike into package that winds up on top of one of my kids after caving in my living room? I'll retire on them... several times over.
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky-knight View Post
    As for the aerial delivery stuff... I don't think that's happening anytime soon.
    I think you're probably right. But the FAA is tasked with laying the groundwork for the infrastructure, I think. To me, remote ID of almost everything that flies almost certainly contributes to the infrastructure necessary to make aerial delivery possible.

    Consider that recreational pilots currently don't register individual drones, but themselves. Meaningful air traffic control is impossible in that situation.

  10. #20
    Untangle Ninja sky-knight's Avatar
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    True, which indicates a need for some sort of grandfathering clause. Or perhaps the registration of individual drones will be limited to drones beyond a certain weight or payload capacity. Because again from an enforcement perspective, it only really makes sense to deal with the commercial stuff.

    We certainly don't want to do the hands off thing and have an air borne repeat of the bird scooter plague... yuck!
    Rob Sandling, BS:SWE, MCP
    NexgenAppliances.com
    Phone: 866-794-8879 x201
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